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Mesaj: <blockquote data-quote="ZaphodB" data-source="post: 88058" data-attributes="member: 2777">Hi [USER=1605]@Sadikkara[/USER]. Thanks for the reference recordings. Check with this recording of the same performer on the same instrument in avaz Shur (Hüseyni). It uses the same 2nd degree as your examples in Chahargah (Zirgüleli Hicaz) and Homayun (Hicaz). Note that while these modes are not equivalent between Turkish and Iranian music, they are related and can be compared.[MEDIA=youtube]kKXpRjUKY30[/MEDIA]Indeed, the perdes weren't mathematically explained by any Muslim theorist since Maraghi and until Yekta, at least not to my knowledge. There is however the Great Theory of Music, finished in 1816, where Archbishop Chrysanthos gave exact interval measurements for the diatonic scale/fundamental scale of Byzantine and Ottoman music, likely based on the tanbur. The ratios point to a neutral inflection of Segâh and Irak/Eviç, whereby these notes are a full quartertone flat, like in modern Arab or Iranian music, or Turkish folk music.[ATTACH=full]78187[/ATTACH]There is also the apparent fact that none of the writers evidenced the practice of lowering or sharpening of these notes in particular makams or contexts. This, along with many other clues, lead some to the conclusion that the old tone system likely resembled the one in Iran today.Your accusation of Orientalism is completely unfounded. A single glance at Ottoman records will reveal the abundance and relevance of Iranian-born musicians at the court during the 15th and 16th centuries, and even in the 17th century. Not to mention the general interconnectedness between Iranian and Ottoman music, evidenced in the very names of the notes, maqams, or the Iranian origin of the primary instrumental genre of Ottoman music (the pishrow), among many other things.When the Turkish Bezmârâ Ensemble decided to perform Segâh this way, I doubt their only reference was speculation by Western authors:[MEDIA=youtube]TeqGkII6LLo[/MEDIA]That Segâh perdesi was used as the 2nd in Hicaz is not speculation. Please refer to Dimitrie Cantemir's Kitab-ı ilmu'l musiki ala vechi'l-hurufat:[ATTACH=full]78184[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]78185[/ATTACH]and Nasır Dede's Tedkik ü Tahkik, both of which can be found here on the forum:[ATTACH=full]78186[/ATTACH]While Nasır Dede was a ney player and his choice of Segâh in Hicaz could be explained by the fact that the same hole is used for both Segâh and Dik Kürdi, Cantemir based his system on the tanbur, which he considered the perfect instrument. One would expect him to account for a lower Segâh perdesi in Uzzâl, if one was used. That there was a change in theory by the middle of the 19th century is, once again, not speculation. The change from Segâh to Kürdi in makam Hicaz has been documented in Haşim Bey's treatise from 1864. I'm merely curious whether there is more information or clues about how and when exactly the practice started changing.Dismissing all Western writers without having read or assessed their work as an expert is extremely narrow-minded. Feldman has had extensive experience with present-day Turkish classical music, being a performer himself. He has interviewed, performed alongside and otherwise worked with many masters of Turkish music. He often referred to information provided by master Necdet Yaşar in his book about court music, and he took lessons from Fatih Salgar, the director of the State Turkish Music Chorus. What he wrote on the topic at hand is in no way controversial to anyone except those who want to defend a certain nationalist viewpoint on history. I am not interested in any such discussion. Therefore, I'd highly appreciate input which relates to my original question: can the modern intonation system of Turkish classical music be traced back to a certain decade or individual musician(s), and, more generally, is there any information on the evolution of this system, whether it be speculation or a historical account?</blockquote>

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